Monthly Archives: February 2026

0:23

23 secondsOkay. Uh, welcome everyone to this uh, online version of the people’s voice forum, reflections and lessons from

0:31

31 secondslabor history and workingclass internationalism.

0:35

35 secondsUh PV forum is a community event uh where we highlight issues impacting working people. Some of our formats include movie screenings, uh panels with

0:44

44 secondslocal community organizers, diplomatic representatives, and academics to discuss the ongoing class struggle,

0:51

51 secondsanti-imperialism, and to promote a socialist vision for the future. So we are very excited to continue this

0:58

58 secondsdiscussion tonight with uh Jeff and Hassan. Uh my name is Peter Sakowski.

1:04

1 minute, 4 secondsI’m an organizer with the People’s Voice Forum and I’ll be one of your co-hosts along with Amina this evening.

1:11

1 minute, 11 secondsBut first, before we begin, we’d like to recognize that our work takes place on traditional indigenous territories. We

1:20

1 minute, 20 secondsacknowledge that we are on the traditional territory of many nations, including the Missagas of the Credit, the Inishna, the Chipua, the Hodnoni,

1:29

1 minute, 29 secondsand the Wendat peoples. and it is now home to many diverse First Nations, Inuit and Matei people. We are thankful

1:37

1 minute, 37 secondsfor to be able to work and live in these territories and we are also thankful to the First Nations, Matey and Inowit people who have cared for them for centuries.

1:47

1 minute, 47 secondsWe also must use this land acknowledgement as a reminder of our important work to commit to and expand upon our solidarity with indigenous

1:56

1 minute, 56 secondspeople. We stand in solidarity with 1492 Lambback Lane with the Witsoin land defenders and their allies across the

2:04

2 minutes, 4 secondscountry. We also stand in solidarity with the families of the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and with survivors of the residential school

2:13

2 minutes, 13 secondssystem, with their families and with those families whose children never returned.

2:19

2 minutes, 19 secondsWe must organize with these and all other indigenous people against the ongoing genocide perpetrated by the Canadian state and big business with the

2:27

2 minutes, 27 secondsend goal of winning indigenous nations rights to self-determination and sovereignty up to and including secession.

2:35

2 minutes, 35 secondsAs we express our solidarity with the indigenous people of this land, so too do we extend this principle of support and solidarity to the struggle of

2:43

2 minutes, 43 secondsindigenous people in Palestine in the face of the ongoing genocide.

2:49

2 minutes, 49 secondsI’d also like to introduce um the hosting organizations for our event tonight. Um that is the People’s Voice

2:55

2 minutes, 55 secondsnewspaper, the Canadian Freelance Union, New Labor Press, um which you can purchase a copy of Jeff’s book in Canada, and Labor for Palestine Canada.

3:07

3 minutes, 7 secondsUh and with that, I’ll throw it over to Amina to make some introductions.

3:12

3 minutes, 12 secondsGood evening, everyone. My name is Amina. I’m a union organizer and I am the current VP, vice president of the

3:20

3 minutes, 20 secondsCanadian Freelance Union. We are part of Unifor the Union and I’m so proud to be here tonight with all my comrades and I

3:29

3 minutes, 29 secondsalso am part of Labor for Palestine Canada and also do um have been doing work with Labor for Palestine the US and

3:37

3 minutes, 37 secondswe know some of them are watching tonight. I’m really honored to introduce um Jeff Sherk um who is a labor

3:45

3 minutes, 45 secondshistorian and assistant professor at the Harry Van Artsdale Jr. School of Labor Studies, Sunni Empire State University

3:53

3 minutes, 53 secondsin New York City. and we all read his first book and we did reviewed that and it was called um the bluecollar empire

4:03

4 minutes, 3 secondsthe untold story of US labor’s global anti-communist crusade and we are so happy to read this book which we are

4:10

4 minutes, 10 secondsdiscussing tonight um which is um no neutrals there US labor zionism and the

4:18

4 minutes, 18 secondsstruggle for Palestine and I would love to introduce Hassan Husseini um is a longtime labor activist

4:25

4 minutes, 25 secondsthat we all know who has been very active with international solidarity, mentored many of us like myself. He is

4:33

4 minutes, 33 secondsthe member of the National Steering Committee of Labor for Palestine Canada.

4:38

4 minutes, 38 secondsHe is a national negotiator um at public service alliance of Canada and a member of local unifor.

4:48

4 minutes, 48 secondsAnd now we will begin and I think I have the first question for both panelists.

4:54

4 minutes, 54 secondsJust bear with me and I’m gonna pull them out.

4:57

4 minutes, 57 secondsUm I think we were just gonna start with Jeff and Hassan doing Yes. Okay.

5:03

5 minutes, 3 secondsIf you wouldn’t mind um just an overview of the book. That would be great. Thank you.

5:09

5 minutes, 9 secondsYeah. Thank you very much. Um yeah, thank you to People’s Voice for organizing this and thanks also to the

5:17

5 minutes, 17 secondsCanadian Freelance Union, Labor for Palestine Canada, New Labor Press. I’m very proud to be on this panel with

5:24

5 minutes, 24 secondsHassan and Amina and Peter. Um and so and thank you all for who are joining

5:30

5 minutes, 30 secondstonight. Um so yeah, a brief overview of the book. Um it’s a history book and

5:38

5 minutes, 38 secondsit’s a history of US labor official’s century long um uh continuous

5:46

5 minutes, 46 secondscenturylong support for Zionism and the state of Israel. Um, so it covers, you

5:54

5 minutes, 54 secondsknow, it starts roughly around the year 1900 and pretty much comes up to the the present or right around, you know, October 2023.

6:02

6 minutes, 2 secondsUm, the title uh, No Neutrals There, as I’m sure many of you are familiar, this

6:09

6 minutes, 9 secondscomes from a famous labor song, Which Side Are You On? Written by Florence Ree in 1931.

6:17

6 minutes, 17 secondsUm, and there’s a part of part of that song says they, you know, it was about the Harland County coal war in Kentucky

6:24

6 minutes, 24 secondsin the United States. And so part of the lyrics go they say in Harland County there are no neutrals there. You’ll

6:31

6 minutes, 31 secondseither be a union man or a thug for JH Blair. And JH Blair was, you know, this notorious anti-UN sheriff in Harland

6:40

6 minutes, 40 secondsCounty. So the idea of the that song and and kind of the idea of the book, right, is that it’s something very common to

6:47

6 minutes, 47 secondsfolks in the labor movement and other movements around social justice um and liberation that you can’t when it comes

6:56

6 minutes, 56 secondsto matters of oppression or exploitation or genocide or class struggle, you can’t just be neutral and on the sidelines.

7:04

7 minutes, 4 secondsAnd that’s kind of the if there’s a you know central message to the book that’s the message especially directed at the US labor movement but I think it also

7:13

7 minutes, 13 secondsgoes pretty well for the Canadian labor movement as well. um that you know in in the contemporary

7:20

7 minutes, 20 secondscontext in the United States at least that’s where where I have most of my experience um whenever rank and file

7:30

7 minutes, 30 secondsunion members or some union leaders try to speak up in solidarity with the Palestinian liberation movement the

7:37

7 minutes, 37 secondsbacklash from the highest ranking labor officials usually is like well we can’t talk about Palestine it’s too

7:44

7 minutes, 44 secondscontroversial it has nothing to do with unions. It has nothing to do with collective bargaining. So, we just shouldn’t even talk about it and

7:51

7 minutes, 51 secondsshouldn’t uh weigh in and that kind of thing. And it’s this sort of, you know, we need to just kind of be quiet or be

7:58

7 minutes, 58 secondsneutral. And what my book is trying to do is showing how it it tries to show how, you know, ridiculous and absurd

8:05

8 minutes, 5 secondsthat is. Not only for the obvious moral reasons and political reasons, but for historical reasons that the United States labor movement has never been

8:14

8 minutes, 14 secondssilent or neutral on the question of Palestine. It’s always been very much involved, but historically, it’s always it’s been on the wrong side. It’s been

8:23

8 minutes, 23 secondson the side of Zionism, on the side of the state of Israel, and in, you know, directly at the expense of the the

8:32

8 minutes, 32 secondsfreedom and self-determination and human rights of the Palestinians.

8:37

8 minutes, 37 secondsSo, um, the book starts, you know, and a key moment in the first chapter, I would

8:44

8 minutes, 44 secondssay, is 1917 during World War I. 1917 was the year that the United States entered the war and it was very

8:53

8 minutes, 53 secondsunpopular with much of the US working class because they correctly saw the war as this, you know, violent interimperial

9:01

9 minutes, 1 secondconflict where the ruling class was sending workingclass people to go do all the fighting and killing and dying for for their own profits.

9:11

9 minutes, 11 secondsAnd in order to get the US working class to go along with the war and to ramp up industrial production for the war

9:19

9 minutes, 19 secondseffort, you know, to provide all the um equipment and weapons and vehicles and

9:25

9 minutes, 25 secondsships and bombs and uniforms and rations and everything needed uh you know to wage a a modern 20th century war. Um the

9:35

9 minutes, 35 secondsUS government needed to get the labor movement to support the whole war effort and the American Federation of Labor,

9:42

9 minutes, 42 secondsthe AFL, the major trade union federation uh in the US. Um the leadership uh or the particularly the

9:50

9 minutes, 50 secondspresident of the AFL at the time was Samuel Gumpers who was always very eager to demonstrate his uh patriotism and

9:59

9 minutes, 59 secondsloyalty to the US state as a way of winning legitimacy and respectability from uh the government and from the

10:08

10 minutes, 8 secondsemployers and capitalist class. So Gumpers basically pledged the AFL’s full support for the war and um promised

10:17

10 minutes, 17 secondsthere would be no strikes to disrupt wartime production etc.

10:22

10 minutes, 22 secondsAnd um part of how he tried to sell this to rank and file workers was echoing the

10:29

10 minutes, 29 secondsUS president Woodro Wilson’s stated reasons for why the US was entering the war which was you know not about

10:37

10 minutes, 37 secondsimperialism or profits but about uh you know the lofty rhetoric about sa saving democracy and guaranteeing the right uh

10:46

10 minutes, 46 secondsrights of small nations nationalities in Europe living under bit, you know, old the old crumbling empires like the

10:54

10 minutes, 54 secondsAustrohungarian Empire and the Ottoman Empire. And uh that included the Jewish

11:01

11 minutes, 1 secondpeople in Europe. And so when we talk about national the nationalist movement for Jewish people, it was Zionism and

11:09

11 minutes, 9 secondsthe idea of going to uh settle and conquer Palestine. So in uh November

11:17

11 minutes, 17 seconds1917, the British government, you know, um which the British at that time were taking over Palestine in the in the war.

11:28

11 minutes, 28 secondsUm they put forward the famous Balffor declaration which essentially said that uh you know Brit the British Empire was

11:37

11 minutes, 37 secondsum supporting the Zionist aim of creating a Jewish state in Arab Palestine. And literally just a few days

11:45

11 minutes, 45 secondsafter the Balfur declaration, the American Federation of Labor held its annual convention. Um, and at the

11:52

11 minutes, 52 secondsconvention they passed resolutions, pro-war resolutions endorsing President Wilson’s, you know, again, stated aims

11:59

11 minutes, 59 secondsfor the war. And there was a particular plank that basically endorsed Zionism, saying the AFL is in support of the

12:06

12 minutes, 6 secondsZionist aim of creating a Jewish state in Arab Palestine. And this was literally days after the, you know, really important consequential Belffor

12:14

12 minutes, 14 secondsdeclaration. And pretty much from that point forward, you know, and I won’t go into all the details. I’m just saying this is like sort of where the book

12:21

12 minutes, 21 secondsstarts. From that point forward, US labor was on board with Zionism. There’s a lot of other stuff that happened, of

12:30

12 minutes, 30 secondscourse, but just briefly moving forward in time, another key moment, 1948, the Nagba and the the violent establishment

12:39

12 minutes, 39 secondsof the state of Israel with at least 15,000 Palestinians killed and 750,000 Palestinians made refugees.

12:48

12 minutes, 48 secondsum the US labor movement at that point, the AFL as well as the CIO, Congress of Industrial Organizations, the other

12:56

12 minutes, 56 secondsmajor trade union uh center which the two few years later merged together into the AFL CIO. They both again really

13:03

13 minutes, 3 secondsstrongly supported the establishment of the state of Israel using their political influence and economic power that they had accred um at that point in

13:12

13 minutes, 12 secondstime. 1948 was sort of the height of power of the US labor movement and they vigorously were lobbying the US government to uh recognize the Israeli

13:21

13 minutes, 21 secondsstate um to send weapons to Zionist militias that were carrying out an ethnic cleansing campaign with through

13:27

13 minutes, 27 secondsthe Nagba and um coming out of that after the establishment of the state of Israel, US unions and the AFL CIO over

13:36

13 minutes, 36 secondsthe years over many decades were giving hundreds of millions if not billions millions of dollars to nation building

13:44

13 minutes, 44 secondsor actual settler colonialism. Building um all kinds of public facilities and infrastructure

13:52

13 minutes, 52 secondsuh buildings, housing developments, hospitals, uh sports stadiums, community centers, union halls, everything. Lots and lots

14:00

14 minutesof money to actually literally construct the state of Israel. And this money coming from union treasuries, from pension funds, strike funds, um directly

14:09

14 minutes, 9 secondsbeing invested into the the building of the Israeli state. Um and many many other other examples throughout this

14:18

14 minutes, 18 seconds100red-year history of US unions and major labor federations um providing not only political but

14:26

14 minutes, 26 secondsmaterial support to the Zionist project and to the Israeli state. and again always at the direct expense of the Palestinian people. So that’s what the

14:34

14 minutes, 34 secondsbook kind of lays out that whole history, but it also um talks about some of the moments of rank and file union

14:41

14 minutes, 41 secondsmembers and some union leaders in the US pushing back against this and and pushing for an organizing and solidarity with Palestinians, especially in more

14:50

14 minutes, 50 secondsrecent decades. Um, so it has that uh side of the story as well. But the larger history of US union support for

14:58

14 minutes, 58 secondsZionism in Israel, you know, what I hope that does in terms of the contemporary discussions is reveal how ridiculous it

15:07

15 minutes, 7 secondsis to say you you know, oh, Palestine is not a union issue. um you know I mean it’s obviously ridiculous on its own

15:14

15 minutes, 14 secondswithout needing a book uh just for the basic moral and political reasons but the his historical reasons also I think

15:20

15 minutes, 20 secondsare pretty uh important. So that’s just a kind of brief overview of of the book

15:27

15 minutes, 27 secondsand what it is and I’m sure we’ll talk a lot more about it. Thanks.

15:35

15 minutes, 35 secondsGreat. Um thanks for that. That’s great.

15:37

15 minutes, 37 secondsUm Hassan if you wouldn’t mind. Um, yeah, speaking about your work. Thank you.

15:45

15 minutes, 45 secondsThank you, uh, Peter and, uh, thank you, Jeff. It’s, uh, great to be on the same panel, uh, with you. Uh, again, I will

15:52

15 minutes, 52 secondsextend my thanks to the organizers, uh, People’s Voice, New Labor Press, uh, uh, Labor for Palestine as well as well as,

16:01

16 minutes, 1 secondyou know, for freelancers local. Um, I um wanted to just provide a little bit

16:09

16 minutes, 9 secondsof context in relation to the uh labor movement’s support for labor Zionism in

16:16

16 minutes, 16 secondsCanada in particular. For those of you who haven’t read Jeff’s book, there’s a great deal of details in the book about

16:23

16 minutes, 23 secondsthe uh of course the broad context is the history of course of uh of labor

16:29

16 minutes, 29 secondsZionism um uh but also the role that uh um labor uh unions in the US played in

16:40

16 minutes, 40 secondssupport for the Zionist um state project and not only in support of the histadrout as a labor organization.

16:47

16 minutes, 47 secondsation. Um, for those of you who read the book and of course I encourage you all to read it because it’s an excellent book and uh once you read it if you

16:56

16 minutes, 56 secondshaven’t done so yet, you will see that there are a lot of similarities in relation to the support that the uh

17:04

17 minutes, 4 secondslabor u movement and trade unions in the states provided to the histadrout and to the state of Israel uh that you’ll see

17:11

17 minutes, 11 secondsin the United States was also to a great extent mirrored in Canada. Of course u uh Jeff and and

17:19

17 minutes, 19 secondsmyself will put the whole thing in the context of uh two things. One is that that support for labor zionism within

17:28

17 minutes, 28 secondsthe Canadian labor movement and the American labor movement predated even the 1948 Nakba predated the establishment of the state of Israel.

17:37

17 minutes, 37 secondsAnd so with the establishment of the histadrut not so much as a trade union

17:44

17 minutes, 44 secondsorganization but as an colonizing agency as golden called it. Uh we saw in both

17:52

17 minutes, 52 secondsthe United States and Canada support uh for the uh histadrude. You have to understand as well at that time as Jeff

18:01

18 minutes, 1 secondsaid uh we had this gumperist business unionist model uh at that time that we

18:08

18 minutes, 8 secondswere seeing from the uh turn of the century up to uh the establishment of

18:14

18 minutes, 14 secondsthe histaded route in colonized Palestine at that time. And so within

18:20

18 minutes, 20 secondsthat context there was support for the um the Zionist colonization of Palestine

18:29

18 minutes, 29 secondswithin the uh labor movement. of course uh that uh existed but it reached uh

18:37

18 minutes, 37 secondsheightened levels I would say in the 1940s and50s specifically uh in the

18:44

18 minutes, 44 secondscontext of the cold war the anti-communist uh drive within the labor movement in Canada the purges if I may

18:53

18 minutes, 53 secondscall them so of communist uh uh revolutionary socialists and other militant radical uh elements within and the labor movement in uh in Canada.

19:04

19 minutes, 4 secondsThese purges essentially created a labor movement that is devoid of or empty from

19:10

19 minutes, 10 secondsthose radical uh uh thinking uh radical acting elements of uh labor activists who played a key role in the

19:19

19 minutes, 19 secondsestablishment of the labor movement in Canada from the turn of the century.

19:23

19 minutes, 23 secondsWith that, you saw an alignment, of course, of the labor movement in Canada, as in the United States, with the

19:30

19 minutes, 30 secondsCanadian state, and with the vision of the Canadian state as part of the

19:37

19 minutes, 37 secondsanti-communist uh cold war uh um interests and and and support. And in that context, of course, there was

19:45

19 minutes, 45 secondsincreased um affinity, if you will, with projects such as the Zionist state, but also

19:54

19 minutes, 54 secondsthere was a rejection and hostility towards national liberation movements, not only in the Middle East, not only in

20:00

20 minutesPalestine, but across the uh world as well. in the context of Canada and just a little bit of a a a sidetrack here. In

20:10

20 minutes, 10 secondsthe context of Canada, of course, right now we know we all hear about the rand formula, right? And the rant formula in

20:17

20 minutes, 17 secondsthe context of the uh uh uh cold the world former the period after World War

20:26

20 minutes, 26 secondsII, what we call the post-war compromise in the labor movement. Uh Ivan C. friend who was a Canadian uh judge who presided

20:35

20 minutes, 35 secondsover resolving the 1946 UAW strike in Windsor. Uh when he resolved the strike, there was a

20:44

20 minutes, 44 secondscompromise that was struck at that time because the strike was over recognition.

20:48

20 minutes, 48 secondsThe compromise that was struck at that time it was we will exchange um recognition for unions and the ranch

20:55

20 minutes, 55 secondsfarmer are providing for union dues. So union financial security in return of

21:02

21 minutes, 2 secondscourse for respectability in return for uh acceptance and in return for uh

21:09

21 minutes, 9 secondsmaking sure that the labor movement is is is not a radical one that is challenging the basic uh premise of uh

21:18

21 minutes, 18 secondscapitalism and imperialism on the world stage. Incidentally, Ivan Cand uh was appointed in 1947

21:26

21 minutes, 26 secondsto be Canada’s representative to the United Nations uh special committee on Palestine, UNSCO and Ivan Cand under the

21:36

21 minutes, 36 secondsunder secretary of state um um by the name of of course uh um who later became

21:44

21 minutes, 44 secondsour prime minister. I can’t remember his name now um uh Pearson.

21:50

21 minutes, 50 secondsThey were very much Zionists in terms of their thinking and their affiliation

21:57

21 minutes, 57 secondsthat they played a very important role specifically I san in the uh pushing for the acceptance of the resolution 181 of

22:07

22 minutes, 7 secondsthe United Nations in 1947 that partitioned Palestine at that time. and uh both these individuals who were

22:14

22 minutes, 14 secondscritical uh in the Canadian uh state at that time um uh became heroes for the uh

22:23

22 minutes, 23 secondsZionist movement in and Palestine at that time and they were so honored. So there is a little bit of a connection between the kind of labor relations

22:32

22 minutes, 32 secondsregime that we ended up with uh in the 1940s and50s as a result of the rant formula which is a double-edged sword

22:40

22 minutes, 40 secondsand the role that some of these individuals played uh in the question of Palestine itself. So that’s just an

22:47

22 minutes, 47 secondsinteresting historical fact. uh in uh Canada um during this period of time the

22:54

22 minutes, 54 seconds40s and 50s I would say that there was solidification of support for the histadrude through the histadr trade

23:01

23 minutes, 1 secondunion council an organization that believe it or not in Canada had four offices it had staff across the country

23:09

23 minutes, 9 secondsis it was headquartered in Montreal it uh it included within its ranks leaders within the labor movement including uh

23:18

23 minutes, 18 secondsfrom the CCL or the Congress of Canadian labor which eventually became the Canadian labor congress. So in that

23:26

23 minutes, 26 secondscontext the the council the histadr trade union council was established in order to provide the support for uh not

23:35

23 minutes, 35 secondsonly the histadrud itself but for the the whole zionist colonial project uh in

23:42

23 minutes, 42 secondsuh in in Palestine before 1944 that work was done through the Canada Palestine committee. Yes I said that

23:50

23 minutes, 50 secondsright Canada Palestine committee because there was no Israel at that time. So that was the work that was done in support of the settler colonial project

23:58

23 minutes, 58 secondsand then it moved into the the uh the uh the the council. Um this work or this

24:06

24 minutes, 6 secondssupport for Israel started to wayne over the years uh to some extent in the 60s and 70s. We saw the rise of uh of uh uh

24:15

24 minutes, 15 secondsmore radical forces and independent labor action in support of national liberation movements and against the war and for disarmament. And that included

24:23

24 minutes, 23 secondsalso leftists and and radical elements becoming more uh uh critical uh of uh of Canada’s position with respect to

24:32

24 minutes, 32 secondssupporting the u the uh the Israeli Zionist uh project. However,

24:37

24 minutes, 37 seconds[clears throat]

24:39

24 minutes, 39 secondsduring this period and up to the 1980s, support was was still entrenched uh in the uh Canadian labor movement for uh

24:48

24 minutes, 48 secondsfor Israel and support was in the form of resolutions uh in the form of fundraising directly for the history and

24:56

24 minutes, 56 secondsfor specific project in Israel for building schools and so on. Uh it was also uh in the form of educationals uh

25:04

25 minutes, 4 secondsin uh uh Canada itself. uh explaining how wonderful as a workers model Israel

25:13

25 minutes, 13 secondsis, right? Uh and the labor movement in Israel through the history played an important role for providing that figley

25:20

25 minutes, 20 secondsfor the brutality of the occupation for the settler colonization and so on. This began to change even more uh in the

25:28

25 minutes, 28 seconds1980s and uh and into the 1990s and uh and up to now. And I would say two critical periods uh that we see this

25:37

25 minutes, 37 secondschange from the entrenchment of labor zionism support within the Canadian labor movement to now. uh one occurred

25:44

25 minutes, 44 secondsat the beginning of 1980s 1982 with the invasion of Lebanon where you had more critical voices within the labor movement coming out and speaking out and

25:52

25 minutes, 52 secondstaking resolutions and passing resolutions condemning the invasion and supporting the Palestinian people’s right to self-determination including

26:01

26 minutes, 1 secondrecognition for the PLO. Uh the second one of course was the inifada in the late 1980s which also saw more and more

26:09

26 minutes, 9 secondslabor activists being desensitized to the question of Palestine. And fast forward to 2005 with the call for BDS

26:18

26 minutes, 18 secondsfrom 170 Palestinian organizations including um labor unions in Palestine.

26:24

26 minutes, 24 secondsThat in my opinion really was the turning point uh in changing the position of a lot of people within the Canadian labor movement. And what we saw

26:32

26 minutes, 32 secondsfrom that point on are major unions in the country uh uh accepting and passing

26:41

26 minutes, 41 secondsresolutions in support of the uh BDS uh movement. And over the past two years, we saw that even become more so through

26:51

26 minutes, 51 secondsthe uh the uh condemnation of the genocide by many more of the um of the

27:00

27 minutesuh unions and leaders uh in Canada. We still have a very long way to go and as folks know and hopefully we can get to that during the questions and answers.

27:10

27 minutes, 10 secondsWe in labor for Palestine have a campaign on the go right now called hot cargo kills, no labor for genocide. And

27:17

27 minutes, 17 secondsthrough that campaign, we hope to continue to move the labor movement in a position of not only

27:25

27 minutes, 25 secondsuh having policy resolutions on the books in support of Palestinian liberation and calling for the boycott,

27:32

27 minutes, 32 secondsdivestment and sanctions of Israel, but also moving into implementation. And that is our biggest challenge going forward.

27:47

27 minutes, 47 secondsThank you to both um the speakers for taking us off and I believe we’re ready

27:55

27 minutes, 55 secondsfor our questions. Um Peter. Okay, perfect. Um so I’ll start us off with the first question. Um, I’ll try not to

28:04

28 minutes, 4 secondsbe too wordy, but I was thinking about this. So, um, uh, so Jeff’s both Jeff’s books, um,

28:12

28 minutes, 12 secondssort of lay the history and like shifts in the labor movement. And I think one

28:18

28 minutes, 18 secondsof one of the points that really um major shifts that I saw in both books is after World War II or during World War

28:26

28 minutes, 26 secondsII, President Roosevelt um you know essentially um made a deal between labor

28:33

28 minutes, 33 secondsofficial and um um with the AFL CIO and really within those years we see um the

28:43

28 minutes, 43 secondsincrease of like purging as we discussed of radicals and communists and um you

28:50

28 minutes, 50 secondsrefer to this as a nonradical trade unionism substituting class struggle and

28:56

28 minutes, 56 secondsproletariat revolution and um how the AFL CIO was very aligned with labor

29:04

29 minutes, 4 secondsZionism and many of these radical locals that were purged over these years um

29:10

29 minutes, 10 secondswere known for organizing um across racial lines. They were militant, they were anti-war, and they were vehemently anti-imperialist.

29:20

29 minutes, 20 secondsUm, and then soon thereafter um with the cold war, we see again that the labor movement, you know, starts working on

29:28

29 minutes, 28 secondsbehalf of the state and working on behalf of the government in terms of the cold war and internationally um being

29:36

29 minutes, 36 secondsinvolved in that. And yet we still see that wages and living conditions would generally like be good for the ordinary American.

29:46

29 minutes, 46 secondsSo um was this part of labor support for Zionism? Were some of these like gains for the American worker because of

29:56

29 minutes, 56 secondsbecause of Zionism? Secondly, with everything that’s happening now, with Canada and the US and the rise of

30:03

30 minutes, 3 secondsfascism in both of our countries just looking different, um, and really the decline of workers rights and, um, you

30:13

30 minutes, 13 secondsknow, worker power and maybe even the labor labor power, could we see new opportunities emerging in terms of class

30:22

30 minutes, 22 secondsstruggle, unionism, and internationalism? and I’ll give it to Jeff first.

30:30

30 minutes, 30 secondsOkay. Thank you. Uh yeah uh the you know the anti-communism,

30:38

30 minutes, 38 secondsanti-radicalism is such a huge part of this story. Uh the story of the the US labor movement’s um sort of rise and

30:46

30 minutes, 46 secondsfall in the 20th century. Um and and it is directly tied to this history of US

30:52

30 minutes, 52 secondslabor support for labor zionism. Um uh yeah, as as you were saying, Ammon,

31:00

31 minutesas Hassan was talking about in the Canadian context, the postw World War II period, um

31:07

31 minutes, 7 secondsmuch of the labor movement kind of surrendered class struggle and the idea of struggle on the shop floor in in

31:14

31 minutes, 14 secondsfavor of reliance on the state and um hope hoping that for high ranking union

31:21

31 minutes, 21 secondsofficials like trying to get a seat at the table in economic planning ing alongside government officials and corporate executives. I’m hoping that

31:29

31 minutes, 29 secondsthis could be like class collaboration in in the name of national prosperity and um things like that. And that meant

31:38

31 minutes, 38 secondsbasically going along with the cold war, going along with US imperialism and at the same time expelling radicals,

31:47

31 minutes, 47 secondscommunists from the ranks of the labor movement. the the very same people who had been largely responsible for the success and the growth of the labor

31:54

31 minutes, 54 secondsmovement in the previous years. And so this created a you know a very different kind of um very different kind of labor

32:02

32 minutes, 2 secondsmovement that was ultimately I think weaker. Um and the part about where

32:09

32 minutes, 9 secondslabor Zionism and uh support for Israel kind of comes into it is you know it’s part of it’s for one thing you know

32:18

32 minutes, 18 secondssupport for Israel is has been and continues to be a key pillar of US empire with Israel seen as a you know

32:26

32 minutes, 26 secondscritical bullwark for western power in the Middle East. Um during the Cold War, it was especially about keeping staving off Soviet influence in the Middle East.

32:38

32 minutes, 38 secondsUm because the surrounding Arab states uh received economic and military aid from the Soviet Union. And so the US

32:47

32 minutes, 47 secondsgovernment thought, well, we have to prop up Israel to, you know, keep keep the Soviets out of the out of the Middle East. And then in since the cold war,

32:56

32 minutes, 56 secondsit’s basically the same argument only instead of the Soviet Union or communism being seen as the enemy. It’s like Islamic revolutionary movements like

33:05

33 minutes, 5 secondslike Iran or or um you know uh secular uh governments and enemies of the US

33:12

33 minutes, 12 secondslike Saddam Hussein or Assad. You know, again, the idea of Israel being having such a strong military uh to to kind of

33:20

33 minutes, 20 secondsdominate the region or keep keep things in check uh in support of US and Western imperial power and um but another part

33:29

33 minutes, 29 secondsof it um [clears throat] besides and and the so sorry I should say the fact that the AFL CIO of top officials were fully

33:37

33 minutes, 37 secondsinvested in the cold war and US imperialism which is really the subject of my my first book you know working hand inhand with the State Department

33:45

33 minutes, 45 secondsand the CIA all around the world to make sure that left-wing governments and leftist trade unions would not have not

33:53

33 minutes, 53 secondshave any influence. Um um so so in that sense like supporting Israel was just

34:00

34 minuteskind of part of that larger project of supporting US empire. But in a more specific way, supporting labor zionism

34:09

34 minutes, 9 secondsum was part of the sort of cold war hearts and minds campaign for the AFL CIO looking at other workers movements,

34:16

34 minutes, 16 secondsother workingclass people in the global south or what was you know then commonly called the third world like not the Soviet world or the cap or the western

34:24

34 minutes, 24 secondsUS world but the sort of newly independent states of Africa and Asia um and other parts of the world. um not

34:33

34 minutes, 33 secondswanting the workers of those regions to to look towards the Soviet Union or look towards China or look towards any kind of communist or socialist state as an

34:42

34 minutes, 42 secondsexample to follow for you know rapid economic development.

34:46

34 minutes, 46 secondsuh but instead look they wanted those countries the global south to look more to the US and to um you know capitalist

34:55

34 minutes, 55 secondseconomic development and Israel they they kind of held up as a great model because of how technically Israel was

35:03

35 minutes, 3 secondslike this newly independent state in in the Middle East. um you know of course it was a settler colonial state making it quite different from the newly

35:11

35 minutes, 11 secondsindependent states of like subsaharan Africa for example but they would sort of compare as they say to to the countries of Africa oh you just achieved

35:20

35 minutes, 20 secondsindependence so did Israel so you’re basically kind of the same and look at all the great things Israel is doing with through labor Zionism because you

35:28

35 minutes, 28 secondsknow in its early not so much now but in the first few decades of its existence the state of Israel really did have a

35:35

35 minutes, 35 secondslabor centered economy. Um, but the, you know, the the catch is that it was a racist labor- centered economy only for

35:44

35 minutes, 44 secondsJewish Israelis only, you know, priorit prioritizing in their um their economic

35:51

35 minutes, 51 secondsneeds and and you know, completely um at always at the expense of of indigenous Palestinians, including Palestinian citizens of

35:59

35 minutes, 59 secondsIsrael. So, but you know, the AFL CIO, US labor leaders basically just completely glossed over that part and

36:07

36 minutes, 7 secondsjust erased Palestinians from the whole discussion and would repeatedly talk about how the history, the major, you

36:14

36 minutes, 14 secondsknow, that Hassan was talking about, the major labor Zionist institution that we often talk about as a trade union federation, but really, as Hassan said,

36:22

36 minutes, 22 secondsan instrument of of colonialism. Um they would hold up the US labor leaders would hold up his the history as this great

36:30

36 minutes, 30 secondsexample of um a so-called labor federation having a lot of influence and not only representing workers through

36:39

36 minutes, 39 secondscollective bargaining but also providing them with health care with education and training and housing and all kind and

36:46

36 minutes, 46 secondssocial welfare and um you know Israel’s economy grew pretty quickly and it was

36:54

36 minutes, 54 secondslike like I say Again, for at least for Jewish Israelis, it was a very uh it was very pro- labor kind of economy. So, the

37:03

37 minutes, 3 secondsUS labor movement would hold this up as an example to uh workers movements in the rest of the global south and say you should try to emulate Israel and and

37:11

37 minutes, 11 secondstheir kind of model. Um rather than looking towards any, you know, state socialist uh or socialist countries. Um

37:20

37 minutes, 20 secondsand in fact and I talk about this a little bit in the book um the history and the Israeli government had like in

37:26

37 minutes, 26 secondsthe 60s um uh an educational initiative for African it was called the AfroAsian Institute I think and it was mainly

37:35

37 minutes, 35 secondsalthough that had Asian in the title it was mainly workers from Africa unionists who would come to Israel and take

37:43

37 minutes, 43 secondstraining courses on like union administration and collective bargaining as well as like how to manage cooperative and and things like that. And it was

37:52

37 minutes, 52 secondsall, you know, it was all very much a cold war project. It was an ideological kind of thing to like win the support of

37:58

37 minutes, 58 secondsa African unions to to the west and the AFL CIO funded this school, you know,

38:07

38 minutes, 7 secondsgave them hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years. Um, so that’s that’s part of the where the Cold War also fits into this uh story.

38:18

38 minutes, 18 secondsUm and I think to the second part of the question about you know fascism today

38:26

38 minutes, 26 secondsand what they you know the kind of necessity of the working class through the labor movement and through community

38:33

38 minutes, 33 secondsorganizations and every other you know through all kinds of organizations the working class needing to resist um and fight back against fascism which

38:41

38 minutes, 41 secondswe were seeing in places like Minneapolis right with the um big day of action or general strike that that happened uh on January 23rd and the

38:50

38 minutes, 50 secondsconstant organizing against ICE. Um yeah, I mean it’s it is kind of maybe hopefully the silver lining to all the

38:58

38 minutes, 58 secondsthe horrible, you know, terrifying things happening is that it opens up a window for a return of more class

39:05

39 minutes, 5 secondsconscious and um radical militant kinds of organizing strategies, tactics in the labor movement. Um it’s not going to

39:15

39 minutes, 15 secondshappen on its own obviously, right? And especially with what we’re talking about the major established US unions and the AFL CIO and their top leaders. I mean,

39:24

39 minutes, 24 secondssome of them are rather progressive and they’re talking um about general strikes and um you know, fighting back against

39:31

39 minutes, 31 secondsICE, but um it’s ultimately going to be coming more from the rank and file kind of pushing and local unions um kind of

39:39

39 minutes, 39 secondspushing the way forward. And I’m sure it’s the same in Canada, but um that’s the best. I mean now I’m just a historian so that’s that’s the best I

39:48

39 minutes, 48 secondsanswer I can give about contemporary affairs.

39:53

39 minutes, 53 secondsDo you Hassan do you w to thank you for that answer and Hassan we’ll give you some time and then we’ll go to Peter

40:00

40 minutesjust very very briefly I I’ll just address maybe the uh the last part I think that uh in in Canada as in the

40:08

40 minutes, 8 secondsUnited States definitely when it comes to the labor movement we are still living the legacy uh of the creation of

40:16

40 minutes, 16 secondsa labor movement that is very much uh entrenched within the capitalist system

40:23

40 minutes, 23 secondsuh and and that post-war compromise uh uh needs to be broken fully and I

40:31

40 minutes, 31 secondsdon’t think we’ve we’ve we’ve done so yet uh in in many respects and so in my opinion there is a very intimate

40:38

40 minutes, 38 secondsrelationship between the uh the an analysis and the struggle um at home uh

40:47

40 minutes, 47 secondsagainst the rising fascism and of course the austerity agenda and the neoliberal capitalist system that we are witnessing that is really taking a toll on on on

40:55

40 minutes, 55 secondsworking people and and uh and the working class generally uh and the the the analysis and the understanding that

41:03

41 minutes, 3 secondsthis is part and parcel of a broader capitalist imperialist system. And so building those solidarities uh between our struggle at home and our struggle

41:11

41 minutes, 11 secondsinternationally is is critical. And I I I often reflect and and and we have discussions about why isn’t the labor

41:20

41 minutes, 20 secondsmovement in the United States or Canada more advanced in terms of its position in support of national liberation struggle including Palestine but not

41:28

41 minutes, 28 secondsonly Palestine. Why is their position on Venezuela? What is happening there is so timid sometimes right? Although they’ve

41:35

41 minutes, 35 secondsmade statements but not don’t they don’t go far enough. I think all of this because I I don’t

41:43

41 minutes, 43 secondsthink that there is any longer. Of course, I’m making generalization here.

41:49

41 minutes, 49 secondsUnions are not all the same. Some are better. But but we’re we are increasingly living uh uh and and continue to be

41:59

41 minutes, 59 secondsliving and working under a labor relations regime that is uh has put us in a legal straight jacket when it comes

42:06

42 minutes, 6 secondsto strikes, when it comes to independent actions and so on. So in order to become

42:12

42 minutes, 12 secondsbetter uh labor internationalists, we need to break the model of business unionism

42:22

42 minutes, 22 secondsthat is still uh dominant within the uh the Canadian labor movement and the American labor movement uh as well. And

42:30

42 minutes, 30 secondsit’s only then when we can fight uh in turn internally locally at the national

42:37

42 minutes, 37 secondslevel uh the class struggle at home but also be able to be in in concrete forms of solidarity uh with uh our comrades,

42:46

42 minutes, 46 secondssisters and brothers, siblings uh internationally and really truly support national liberation struggles such as the Palestinian people struggle.

42:58

42 minutes, 58 secondsThanks so much, Assan. Um, Jeeoff, I wanted to ask you, so we, you know, we’ve just been talking about sort of this dichotomy between class struggle,

43:07

43 minutes, 7 secondsum, and its necessity in order to tackle creeping fascism in the US. Um, and so I have like it’s kind of a similar thing,

43:14

43 minutes, 14 secondsbut within the Zionist movement. So, you know, you start your book um, at the end of the 19th century. um which makes sense because it’s the time where

43:23

43 minutes, 23 secondspilgrims against Jews are becoming more widespread. Um you know people like Theodore Herzel are are publishing about

43:30

43 minutes, 30 secondsZionism. Um and what I was struck by in the book though was how much sort of socialistic language is featured within the early Zionist movement.

43:40

43 minutes, 40 secondsRight. And so and um my idea is sort of is that you know there at the end of the 19th century there were sort of two competing ideas about how to end Jewish

43:49

43 minutes, 49 secondsoppression in Europe. One of them was socialism sort of exemplified as you say by organizations such as the bund. Um

43:57

43 minutes, 57 secondsand then which was a workingclass organization. Um and then we have Zionism which is a nationalistic Jewish

44:04

44 minutes, 4 secondsmovement sort of taking inspiration from other nationalist movements in Europe at the time. And this is propagated mostly by upper class Jewish intellectuals and

44:14

44 minutes, 14 secondscapitalists etc. Um, and I and I think it’s just like an a sort of a piece of trivia that Theodore Herzel’s Jewish

44:21

44 minutes, 21 secondsstate was actually originally titled an address to the Rothschilds. There sort of like places it where where Zionism is sort of sitting within the class

44:29

44 minutes, 29 secondsmovement. Um, but but but despite sort of like the competition between these ideologies, like a lot of the language surrounding the first Zionist

44:36

44 minutes, 36 secondsorganizations paid lip service at least to socialism and even Marxism. Um but gradually these socialistic leanings were sort of were eclipsed by

44:44

44 minutes, 44 secondsnationalistic ones we know right so this the rise of the lood party and Netanyahu um and so I wondered if you could speak

44:51

44 minutes, 51 secondsa little bit to what you thought the main contradiction is between that prevented socialism and nationalism from

44:59

44 minutes, 59 secondsbeing able to coexist under the Zionist project despite labor Zionism actively trying to reconcile the two of them.

45:08

45 minutes, 8 secondsYeah. So I would say thank you uh for the question. And I would say that um we talk about Theodore Herszel and the be

45:15

45 minutes, 15 secondsthe origins of the Zionist organization was founded in 1897 that really was you know a middle and upper class movement whereas you had the

45:23

45 minutes, 23 secondsJewish labor bund as you said was a workingclass movement and the two and a socialist movement and the two were separate and at odds with each other but

45:32

45 minutes, 32 secondsthen it was a little later um you know around the 1910s or thereabouts that you started to have the beginnings of of

45:40

45 minutes, 40 secondslabors Zionism, which is when some of the uh workingclass socialist Jews in Europe um kind of started pulling away

45:48

45 minutes, 48 secondsfrom the labor b the Jewish labor bund and um embracing Zionism. But they they embraced a kind of different type of

45:56

45 minutes, 56 secondsZion. Whereas people like Theodore Herszel, their whole um strategy for achieving a Jewish state in Palestine

46:03

46 minutes, 3 secondswas appealing to the wealthy and the ruling class and imperial powers. The strategy of the socialist or labor

46:11

46 minutes, 11 secondsZionists u that started to emerge around the 1910s and especially 1920s and beyond. Their strategy was well we’re just going to actually go to Palestine.

46:20

46 minutes, 20 secondsWe’re going to build a Jewish state ourselves. And that this is the origins of the histadjut in 1920 and becoming you know as we said a kind of instrument

46:28

46 minutes, 28 secondsof settler colonialism of um talking about the con not only the conquest of land but the conquest of labor um

46:36

46 minutes, 36 secondscreating a uh Jewishonly economy um to lay the economic foundations for the eventual creation of the state of

46:44

46 minutes, 44 secondsIsrael. Um but it so it was it rema even it was different than the kind of more mainstream if you will or political

46:52

46 minutes, 52 secondsZionism of that of Theodore Herszel the labor Zionism or socialist Zionism um that eventually came to dominate the

47:00

47 minuteslarger Zionist project by about the 1930s and then continued to sort really be the most powerful political force in

47:08

47 minutes, 8 secondsthe state of Israel up until about the 7 1970s 1980s when the Lood party started to take over. Um because right because

47:15

47 minutes, 15 secondsthe all the first prime ministers and you know governments of Israel were labor Zionists. The first prime

47:23

47 minutes, 23 secondsministers the first prime minister uh what was David Bengurian who was also the first general secretary of the history and gold mayor another early uh

47:32

47 minutes, 32 secondsprime minister was um also a leading figure in the history before entering politics. So um anyway yeah there did

47:42

47 minutes, 42 secondsremain so and then there was also you know the more revisionist or what we might call extreme right-wing Zionism you know that uh that the lood party and

47:51

47 minutes, 51 secondsand other even more extreme parties represent. So, like within Zionism, there have been all these different um

47:58

47 minutes, 58 secondsfactions, some more quote unquote leftwing or or socialist and others more clearly right-wing. But, you know, at

48:05

48 minutes, 5 secondsthe end of the day, it’s all Zionism and it’s all about it’s all premised on um uh complete conquest of Palestine and

48:14

48 minutes, 14 secondsJewish supremacy and racism and colonialism.

48:18

48 minutes, 18 secondsBut, so that’s probably the biggest contradiction. I mean yes it’s a you know it’s a nationalist movement Zionism but it’s nationalism premised on taking

48:28

48 minutes, 28 secondsconquering land and in the case of labor Zionism conquering labor conquering labor markets you know economically dis

48:35

48 minutes, 35 secondsnot only physically um um expelling Palestinians but economically marginalizing them so that

48:44

48 minutes, 44 secondsbut the idea that that would push them out you know push them out economically um so you know I I would say that even

48:51

48 minutes, 51 secondslike you know despite the socialist rhetoric and um or Marxist rhetoric and some of the you know as I was saying

49:00

49 minutesbefore legitimately pro- labor kinds of policies and social welfare programs and cooperatives and you know things like

49:07

49 minutes, 7 secondsthat it it’s not I wouldn’t call it actual real socialism because it’s always premised on racism and socialism

49:15

49 minutes, 15 secondsis a universal you know for workingclass uh movement of of freedom, not a movement of uh of oppression.

49:25

49 minutes, 25 secondsAnd so, um that yeah, I would say that’s kind of the major uh major reason why those didn’t uh work

49:34

49 minutes, 34 secondstogether. But but also, you know, part of why the the right-wing lood

49:41

49 minutes, 41 secondsparty kind of took over uh and kind of, you know, labor Zionism kind of got less and less

49:49

49 minutes, 49 secondsum lost a lot of power and influence especially by the 70s and 80s. In part was because of in some ways it was a

49:57

49 minutes, 57 secondsvictim of its own success. It was a colonial movement. And it was about creating a state and then you know in so-called nation building and uh it it

50:05

50 minutes, 5 secondsachieved that again at the expense of the indigenous people of Palestine and then by the 70s or 80s or so um you know

50:15

50 minutes, 15 secondsthat that mantra of uh the conquest of labor or the um um highlighting what like what the labor

50:22

50 minutes, 22 secondsZionists called Hebrew labor and was which was this notion of like this image of a Jewish worker as a proletarian and and doing manual ual labor and kind of a

50:31

50 minutes, 31 secondssort of gendered, you know, manly kind of thing. This was a big part of labor Zionism in the early to mid 20th century. But by the 70s and 80s, you

50:40

50 minutes, 40 secondsknow, Israeli workers were like not they weren’t they weren’t that into the into it. They were like, well, we’ll have, you know, Palestinians from the occupied

50:47

50 minutes, 47 secondsterritories doing all the manual labor and all the, you know, the the grunt work and the the dirty work, the low paid manual work or, you know, and then

50:55

50 minutes, 55 secondsnow it’s increasing. it’s still Palestinian workers from the occupied territories, but it’s increasingly also, you know, guest workers from from parts of Asia and and and um and elsewhere.

51:06

51 minutes, 6 secondsSo, that kind of uh it was like a new generation of uh Jewish Israelis who didn’t have that same kind of value

51:14

51 minutes, 14 secondsvaluing labor for labor’s sake. um and these kinds of partly because again the

51:20

51 minutes, 20 secondsIsraeli economy um had developed um so kind of labor zionism and it’s a similar

51:28

51 minutes, 28 secondsstory in a way you know when we talk about uh the US laborers of support for imperialism and militarism

51:37

51 minutes, 37 secondsum it didn’t work out very well for the US labor movement at at the end of the day like it might have won some

51:44

51 minutes, 44 secondsshort-term gains means for a certain segment of the US working class, you know, particularly industrial workers, white male workers, highly skilled

51:52

51 minutes, 52 secondsworkers. But um eventually once like the cold war was won by the US and the Soviet Union was dissolved um the US

52:02

52 minutes, 2 secondsgovernment was kind of like we don’t have any more need for supporting you any more need to um for for the assistance of uh the AFL CIO and then

52:11

52 minutes, 11 secondsyou know quickly embraced it had already been embracing you know neoliberalism and um you know the international race to the bottom. So even though the AFL

52:20

52 minutes, 20 secondsCIAO had been a such a staunch supporter of the Cold War, it didn’t benefit anything from from the Cold War. And in

52:27

52 minutes, 27 secondsthe same way, you could say that about labor Zionism being so instrumental to colonialism and quote unquote nation building in Israel, but then ultimately

52:36

52 minutes, 36 secondsnot really u benefiting from it.

52:42

52 minutes, 42 secondsThank you. That’s that’s super interesting. Um, and um, I I wanted to sort of go back

52:50

52 minutes, 50 secondsback to Hassan. Um, and you know, we we talked about a variety of the factors entrenching labor support for Zionism. So some of the things that

52:58

52 minutes, 58 secondsyou know Jeff just mentioned um and uh but also like class collaboration incentives financial relationships and

53:06

53 minutes, 6 secondssupport um and so this is you know labor support in in the US and North America um [snorts] individual relationships between leaders um also membership

53:15

53 minutes, 15 secondssupport for scanism um and so I wanted to see about coming maybe coming back a little bit to the modern day which are so from your perspective what are the

53:24

53 minutes, 24 secondsmost prominent um factors in like if if there’s continuing support for Zionism and labor, what are the most

53:32

53 minutes, 32 secondsprominent factors in Canada now? And how um are Labor for Palestine looking to tackle them?

53:41

53 minutes, 41 secondsThat is that is a excellent question. If I may though, just want to go back to the question you asked Jeff earlier with respect to socialist Zionism and the

53:50

53 minutes, 50 secondsrhetoric that was used by the Zionist movement uh at the time of the uh uh the

53:57

53 minutes, 57 secondsZionist project for statehood uh culminating in the 1948 Nakba. As Jeff said, it is a big contradiction. It is

54:05

54 minutes, 5 secondsreally not very different from when the white upper tide regime talked about uh uh democracy. democracy, you know, they

54:14

54 minutes, 14 secondsused the rhetoric of democracy. They even had the practice of democracy, but that was democracy reserved for uh the white minority, right? And it was

54:23

54 minutes, 23 secondspremised on the colonization and the eraser uh rooted in racism against the majority uh black South Africans. It is

54:32

54 minutes, 32 secondsalso when you talk about South um socialist Zionism, it’s it’s really also not very different from Nazi national

54:41

54 minutes, 41 secondssocialism. uh right I mean that they that’s what they called it and in in both cases uh it is based on deeply

54:50

54 minutes, 50 secondsracist colonial um uh in the case of of course Palestine it was very much uh uh

54:58

54 minutes, 58 secondsanchored in the erasure of the Palestinian people and driving them out of their ancestral home. Socialism and

55:06

55 minutes, 6 secondsZionism cannot be even in the same sentence. And it is the biggest contradiction that uh that ever can uh

55:15

55 minutes, 15 secondsexist and we need to dislodge that idea from the minds of a lot of activists if there are any out there that still have

55:23

55 minutes, 23 secondsuh this this uh viewpoint. with respect to your your question in relation to what are

55:32

55 minutes, 32 secondssome of the um factors that that maybe make um some leaders or unions Zionist

55:40

55 minutes, 40 secondsin nature within the Canadian labor movement. I would say that at the present there are very very few Canadian

55:47

55 minutes, 47 secondsunions that would be considered um Zionist in the in the sense that we understood it historically going back to

55:55

55 minutes, 55 secondsthe 1930s and and 40s and 50s whether it would be in the United States or Canada with the exception perhaps of uh the

56:04

56 minutes, 4 secondslaborers international union of North America uh in Canada I’m speaking I’m I’m not sure I think the United states

56:12

56 minutes, 12 secondswill probably be the same with the exception of Leona which are definitely Zionist in terms of their leadership,

56:19

56 minutes, 19 secondsnever mind the other um corruption and other questionable uh uh links that they

56:26

56 minutes, 26 secondshave to questionable other organizations other than Leona. I would say there

56:34

56 minutes, 34 secondsaren’t Canadian unions that are Zionist or that are controlled by

56:41

56 minutes, 41 secondsZionist forces, right? Um as it used to be in the past. I think the problem we are facing right now within the Canadian

56:48

56 minutes, 48 secondslabor movement is that there is definitely a fear. So those unions that are not speaking out and I think the biggest weakness we see is within the

56:57

56 minutes, 57 secondsprivate sector union. Notwithstanding Unifor, of course, Unifor is the biggest private sector union in Canada. And Unifor has a boycott, divestment, and

57:05

57 minutes, 5 secondssanctions position. Uh, and they’re calling for the two-way arms embargo.

57:10

57 minutes, 10 secondsUh, which is very significant because UNIFR uh does organize and has representation of workers in the arms industry in Canada. Um, so this is an

57:19

57 minutes, 19 secondsadvanced position for a private sector union. They could do more and we’re going to try to push them and work with them to take a better position. Um but

57:27

57 minutes, 27 secondsgenerally speaking those unions or leaders that are not stepping up and speaking out over two years of horrible genocide that is taking place that we’ve

57:36

57 minutes, 36 secondsall seen on our TV screens fear fear of that anti-semitism label is one right it is it can be very powerful so even if

57:45

57 minutes, 45 secondsthey are supportive at different levels of support they’re afraid to be labeled right uh uh so there’s fear and lack of

57:52

57 minutes, 52 secondscourage there is also carerism um it is a powerful force that they may feel that if they speak out irrespective of where

58:01

58 minutes, 1 secondthey stand, you know, whether they are Zionist or none or or pro Palestinian, they may decide that my career uh is

58:10

58 minutes, 10 secondsabove everything else. And so I’m not going to take a position and I’m going to focus on well, we go back to grumpist

58:17

58 minutes, 17 secondsbusiness unionism and that is bread and butter. I’m here to uh service the members uh and uh anything else that is

58:25

58 minutes, 25 secondsa is a distraction because they’re driven by this careerist frame of mind which is culturally within the uh labor

58:33

58 minutes, 33 secondsmovement is very much entrenched as well. And there is also a lack of a a political uh a political program for the

58:41

58 minutes, 41 secondslabor movement that ought to be entrenched in working-class politics and real anti-imperialist labor uh

58:48

58 minutes, 48 secondsinternationalism. Right? That is that is absent. And because of that, you’ll see some uh labor leaders or some labor

58:56

58 minutes, 56 secondsorganizations are uninterested or or they seem to be uninterested or don’t care or don’t take positions in support

59:03

59 minutes, 3 secondsof um Palestinian liberation struggle and Palestinian workers and and and people’s basic human rights. Right. So

59:11

59 minutes, 11 secondsthese are in my opinion the key elements that uh that prevent a lot of uh unions in Canada from taking that extra step

59:20

59 minutes, 20 secondsand and advocating uh for uh for Palestine and Palestinian liberation.

59:25

59 minutes, 25 secondsAnd from our perspective, I think the two challenges we’re facing in labor for Palestine, one is to make sure that

59:30

59 minutes, 30 secondsthese unions um do take a principled uh moral political position uh but at the

59:38

59 minutes, 38 secondssame time don’t do it in a performative manner. uh and that’s our second challenge is uh those who have good

59:45

59 minutes, 45 secondspositions on paper how do we get them implemented right uh and that is I think uh our challenge going forward because

59:54

59 minutes, 54 secondsthere is a a critical unions in Canada that that have supported the boycott divestment and sanctions but we need to

1:00:02

1 hour, 2 secondsget them to the second stage of really acting on these resolutions where we can put pressure on the Canadian state for

1:00:10

1 hour, 10 secondsits complicity but also on Israel through multiplicity of of of including the private sector and the

1:00:19

1 hour, 19 secondscorporations that continue to uh work with Israeli companies, institutions and the state itself. And so that pressure

1:00:26

1 hour, 26 secondsuh needs to accelerate needs to become such that they want to break uh and uh

1:00:34

1 hour, 34 secondsand ultimately break their complicity but put enough pressure on them to uh take that step through concrete

1:00:41

1 hour, 41 secondsimplementation actions by the labor movement. Hot cargo at this particular stage in our opinion is the way to go.

1:00:49

1 hour, 49 secondsAnd hot cargo maybe I’ll explain it later but briefly hot cargo is not about cargo it’s not about shipping only it’s

1:00:57

1 hour, 57 secondsnot about the product it’s about the products it’s about the services it’s about the relationships so from that perspective whether you’re a public

1:01:04

1 hour, 1 minute, 4 secondssector union or a private sector union whether you work at a at a manufacturing plant or you are a municipal worker

1:01:12

1 hour, 1 minute, 12 secondsmunicipalities have relationships with cities and municipalities uh in occupied Palestine with other

1:01:20

1 hour, 1 minute, 20 secondsIsraeli cities and so breaking those connections um with academic institutions that have twinning

1:01:28

1 hour, 1 minute, 28 secondsagreements with other academic institutions in Israel. I think these are all part of hot cargo and so this

1:01:35

1 hour, 1 minute, 35 secondsrelationship that needs to be broken and and in our opinion as labor organizers making sure that break our connections

1:01:43

1 hour, 1 minute, 43 secondsand our ties and our relationship with the histadrout is critical. first step before we move into the uh other areas of complicity.

1:01:56

1 hour, 1 minute, 56 secondsUm thanks Hassan. Yeah, I mean Jeff you speak about in the book a lot about um sort of the social democratic labor

1:02:04

1 hour, 2 minutes, 4 secondsleaders pointing to the histadr as you know this sort of um paradise for workers um and something that we want to

1:02:13

1 hour, 2 minutes, 13 secondsemulate here in the west or North America. Um, and I mean over time the

1:02:21

1 hour, 2 minutes, 21 secondssheen has sort of worn off. I mean no one is talking I mean from my perspective like as part of the labor union myself and looking into this is

1:02:28

1 hour, 2 minutes, 28 secondsthat people don’t talk about at least labor leaders now are not talking about the histadrude. Um, and I mean I think at least part of this has to do with

1:02:37

1 hour, 2 minutes, 37 secondssort of the um the left caucuses in the labor unions that you spoke about in the book that sort of started working um you

1:02:46

1 hour, 2 minutes, 46 secondsknow you talk about um uh Arab immigrants coming into Detroit and um hooking up with the black power movement and then starting to push sort of a um Pal Palestinian solidarity at that time.

1:02:58

1 hour, 2 minutes, 58 secondsUm, and so I thought maybe you could talk a little bit, you know, we we just talked about sort of the most the more modern versions of that, but maybe if

1:03:06

1 hour, 3 minutes, 6 secondsyou could talk a little bit about that sort of the beginnings of the Palestinian solidarity movement within labor that you talk about in the book um

1:03:13

1 hour, 3 minutes, 13 secondsstarting say in like the 1960s ‘7s um and the impact of these movements and how they helped usher in sort of the modern day versions of this like hot cargo etc.

1:03:23

1 hour, 3 minutes, 23 secondsYeah. Uh, one of the I mean even earlier one of the earliest examples I found was actually as early as 1949.

1:03:31

1 hour, 3 minutes, 31 secondsum really as the Nakba was still unfolding and uh a group of ArabAmerican workers in New York, members of the

1:03:39

1 hour, 3 minutes, 39 secondsInternational Ladies Garment Workers Union, uh writing this letter to their union president, David Dubinsky, saying

1:03:47

1 hour, 3 minutes, 47 secondsum because the ILGW, this union, ILGW was already giving like millions of dollars, donating millions of dollars to the history and to the newly established

1:03:56

1 hour, 3 minutes, 56 secondsIsraeli government. Um, and so this group of ArabAmerican rank and file members of the union wrote a letter to the union president saying, “You’re

1:04:03

1 hour, 4 minutes, 3 secondsgiving all this money to to other causes. What What about there’s 750,000

1:04:11

1 hour, 4 minutes, 11 secondsPalestinian refugees? Um, can’t our union donate some money to support them?” I mean, it’s a very timid kind and basic kind of ask, but still very

1:04:19

1 hour, 4 minutes, 19 secondsimportant there because of how, as we’ve been saying, Palestinians have been systematically erased. uh you US and Canadian labor leaders, ionists

1:04:27

1 hour, 4 minutes, 27 secondssystematically erasing the existence of Palestinians and of Palestinian refugees.

1:04:32

1 hour, 4 minutes, 32 secondsSo for 1949 for a group of rank of file union members to be saying, “Hey, why aren’t we doing anything to help uh these refugees?” I think was significant. And they did convince the

1:04:41

1 hour, 4 minutes, 41 secondsunion to donate a a poultry $5,000 in refugee aid, which is, you know, nothing compared to the millions of dollars the

1:04:49

1 hour, 4 minutes, 49 secondsthis particular union was giving to Israel. But it’s still uh significant that it happened and how early it was.

1:04:55

1 hour, 4 minutes, 55 secondsBut yeah, the it really kind of took off in the late 60s and 70s with the UAW um in Detroit, as you mentioned, with

1:05:03

1 hour, 5 minutes, 3 secondsArabAmerican auto workers um who were facing systematic racism and discrimination, language barriers, um

1:05:13

1 hour, 5 minutes, 13 secondsfrom the company, the auto companies they worked for, from local government officials, and from even unfortunately

1:05:20

1 hour, 5 minutes, 20 secondsfrom many of the UAW, the white UAW union leaders and union representatives.

1:05:26

1 hour, 5 minutes, 26 secondsAnd um this was similar to what was happening to many of the rank and file black auto workers who in the late60s formed the League of Revolutionary Black

1:05:34

1 hour, 5 minutes, 34 secondsWorkers and um you know these different um revolutionary caucuses within the auto plants uh starting around 1967 I

1:05:44

1 hour, 5 minutes, 44 secondsthink ‘ 68 and um staging these black workers staging wildcat strikes uh to protest not only the discrimination

1:05:53

1 hour, 5 minutes, 53 secondsexploitation they were facing from the auto companies, but also from the union uh the union leadership and running in

1:05:59

1 hour, 5 minutes, 59 secondsunion elections and articulating a um radical uh you know, black liberation

1:06:08

1 hour, 6 minutes, 8 secondsand Marxist Leninist uh political ideology and connecting um all of that to their to their day-to-day work on the

1:06:16

1 hour, 6 minutes, 16 secondsshop floor. and many of the ArabAmerican workers, Arab immigrants who took inspiration from what the their black

1:06:24

1 hour, 6 minutes, 24 secondsco-workers were doing. And then especially in 1973 at the time of the

1:06:30

1 hour, 6 minutes, 30 secondsthe October war um between Israel and Egypt and Syria when the United States

1:06:37

1 hour, 6 minutes, 37 secondsgovernment gave as always does you know a huge amount of money and military aid to Israel and at the same time

1:06:44

1 hour, 6 minutes, 44 secondshighranking union officials including in the UAW were putting out statements resolutions and total support for Israel

1:06:52

1 hour, 6 minutes, 52 secondsand um taking purchasing as they already had been but purchasing more uh state of Israel bonds. These are, you know,

1:07:00

1 hour, 7 minutesbonds, direct investments into actual state building and infrastructure projects using union dues money, union pension funds. And so the UAW had taken

1:07:10

1 hour, 7 minutes, 10 secondsout something like $700,000 and in uh purchased $700,000 worth of Israeli bonds. And the ArabAmerican UAW

1:07:19

1 hour, 7 minutes, 19 secondsmembers in Detroit and the surrounding area found out about this right in the middle of this, you know, October war.

1:07:25

1 hour, 7 minutes, 25 secondsSo, they organized and then in November of that year, 73, they held their own one-day Wildcat strike at the Dodge main

1:07:33

1 hour, 7 minutes, 33 secondsuh plant, assembly plant, and shut down production for the day, about 2,000 workers.

1:07:39

1 hour, 7 minutes, 39 secondsand they there was an event where the union UAW president Leonard Woodcock was being honored at this gala dinner um by

1:07:47

1 hour, 7 minutes, 47 secondsyou know a pro-Zionist organization being given an award for being a good friend of Israel which this was a kind of thing that was happening constantly

1:07:55

1 hour, 7 minutes, 55 secondswith US union presidents in this period between the ‘ 50s ‘ 60s7s these big events gala dinners uh hosted by various

1:08:02

1 hour, 8 minutes, 2 secondspro-Zionist organizations giving awards to US union presidents for their financial support for Israel So they picketed that event and then

1:08:11

1 hour, 8 minutes, 11 secondscoming out of that they formed an Arab workers caucus within the UAW to continue advocating for you know um for

1:08:20

1 hour, 8 minutes, 20 secondsfor their own rights as a racial minority group within the union. Um and also to you know and to call for more

1:08:29

1 hour, 8 minutes, 29 secondsdemocracy in the union including direct election of top union officials which is something that did eventually happen in the UAW you know 50 years later in 2022.

1:08:40

1 hour, 8 minutes, 40 secondsUm and they argued and called for divestment. you know, this is kind of an early example of a BDS strategy um

1:08:49

1 hour, 8 minutes, 49 secondswithin the labor movement specifically, you know, targeting Israel and um and they also made the connection with South

1:08:56

1 hour, 8 minutes, 56 secondsAfrica. They said um that the fact that you know our union is giving our dues

1:09:04

1 hour, 9 minutes, 4 secondsmoney to a country like a state like Israel is similar to how you know the way we feel about that is similar to how

1:09:13

1 hour, 9 minutes, 13 secondsblack members of the UAW would feel if the UAW was giving their dues money to aparttheid South Africa. So they, you

1:09:22

1 hour, 9 minutes, 22 secondsknow, they made that, you know, parallel and they were successful in getting some of the union UAW locals to, you know, uh, divest or liquidate some of their

1:09:31

1 hour, 9 minutes, 31 secondsIsraeli bonds, but not all of, you know, not all of it. There was push back from the high ranking UAW officials, um, who were kind of claiming like, oh, this is actually, you know, a great investment.

1:09:41

1 hour, 9 minutes, 41 secondsYou know, it’s a there’s a great return on it, even though there wasn’t a good return. It was all very much the only reason they were purchasing these bonds was to demonstrate, you know, political

1:09:49

1 hour, 9 minutes, 49 secondssupport for Zionism. It wasn’t about, you know, the financial aspect of it at all. Um, and as Hassan was saying, the

1:09:59

1 hour, 9 minutes, 59 seconds1980s was a really important turning point. Um, the Israeli invasion of Lebanon and especially the Inifata, the

1:10:07

1 hour, 10 minutes, 7 secondsfirst inifat. During that period, um there was an effort by um a group of

1:10:14

1 hour, 10 minutes, 14 secondsprogressive anti-imperialist union members in the Bay Area, California, um

1:10:21

1 hour, 10 minutes, 21 secondsto um do kind of more education around uh the history and labor Zionism and US

1:10:28

1 hour, 10 minutes, 28 secondslabor official’s long history of being connected to that. and they put out a newsletter for several years and then

1:10:35

1 hour, 10 minutes, 35 secondsthey helped, you know, um they helped several union locals around the country pass resolutions um calling for an arms embargo against

1:10:44

1 hour, 10 minutes, 44 secondsIsrael, calling for the recognition of the PLO, calling for a Palestinian state. So that was a huge kind of breakthrough um at the time in the late

1:10:52

1 hour, 10 minutes, 52 seconds80s and 90s. And another key uh turning point was in the early 2000s during the second inifatada and this was also the

1:11:01

1 hour, 11 minutes, 1 secondbeginning of the so-called war on terror uh when George W. Bush invaded Afghanistan and Iraq and there was a lot

1:11:07

1 hour, 11 minutes, 7 secondsof um you know anti-war organizing and mobiliz mobilizations happening including within some of the unions

1:11:15

1 hour, 11 minutes, 15 secondsagain mostly at the rank and file local union level and they were connecting the dots between what the US was doing in Afghanistan and Iraq and what Israel was

1:11:24

1 hour, 11 minutes, 24 secondsdoing with uh you know in the occupied territories during the second inifatada and then that’s when the labor for Palestine in the United States was

1:11:32

1 hour, 11 minutes, 32 secondsfounded in 2004 and then immediately after that 2005 as Hassan was saying was the BDS launching of the international

1:11:39

1 hour, 11 minutes, 39 secondsBDS movement. So with that in that moment there was kind of a both a the creation of a permanent network of union

1:11:47

1 hour, 11 minutes, 47 secondsactivists to be organizing and educating around Palestine and a very clear strategy instead of demands around BDS.

1:11:57

1 hour, 11 minutes, 57 secondsUm and so it’s kind of continued to to to build ever since. There have been, you know, a few I mean, one of the places where the US labor movement lags

1:12:06

1 hour, 12 minutes, 6 secondsbehind the Canadian labor movement is most of our major unions have not even don’t even rhetorically support BDS. You

1:12:14

1 hour, 12 minutes, 14 secondsknow, like Hassan’s been saying that the challenge in Canada is many unions might support BDS, but they’re not I mean at

1:12:21

1 hour, 12 minutes, 21 secondsthe level of rhetoric and resolutions, but actually getting them to implement it has been a challenge. And in the US there hasn’t even been even rhetorical

1:12:29

1 hour, 12 minutes, 29 secondseven resolutions except for the ID industrial workers of the world in 2011 and then UEIE United Electrical Workers

1:12:35

1 hour, 12 minutes, 35 secondsin 2015. Um, and some in the 2010s and since then, some like graduate student

1:12:42

1 hour, 12 minutes, 42 secondsunions within the UAW were democratically passing BDS resolutions only for the high, you know, the the UAW

1:12:51

1 hour, 12 minutes, 51 secondstop leadership to come in and um, you know, quote unquote, nullify those votes and say you can’t do that because again,

1:12:59

1 hour, 12 minutes, 59 secondsthey’re like Hassan was saying, they’re it’s not so much because they’re still entrenched in in in labor Zionism so

1:13:05

1 hour, 13 minutes, 5 secondsmuch, but more a kind fear um of being labeled anti-semitic. Uh a fear of any kind of risk-taking, still being wedded

1:13:14

1 hour, 13 minutes, 14 secondsto that sort of business union uh class collaborationist model and not wanting to alienate their friends in Washington,

1:13:21

1 hour, 13 minutes, 21 secondsyou US government officials. Um and uh yeah, so that that’s kind of the the challenge now. But anyway, there’s been

1:13:30

1 hour, 13 minutes, 30 secondsthis long history of like of uh pro Palestine uh organizing within some of the unions that’s only it’s only been

1:13:38

1 hour, 13 minutes, 38 secondsgrowing and growing while the support for Zionism within the unions has been, you know, declining. So that’s hopefully

1:13:46

1 hour, 13 minutes, 46 secondsthat trend continues and hopefully it actually, you know, translates into real action and a real break with with this history.

1:13:55

1 hour, 13 minutes, 55 secondsThanks Jeeoff. And and I wanted to hiss on you to talk about that as well. But just a a comment before that before that to sort of set the stage too is that you know Jeeoff you’re saying it that

1:14:03

1 hour, 14 minutes, 3 secondsthere’s a fear here within sort of our labor leaders of losing and that’s kind of what we see that it seems like we’re constantly under siege and just

1:14:12

1 hour, 14 minutes, 12 secondsgarrisoning and trying to protect what we have. Um but in Canada at least, you know, we’re seeing the Liberal government use section 107 to break

1:14:20

1 hour, 14 minutes, 20 secondsstrikes, right? Um within for, you know, for CUP W and um with the Air Canada strike. Um and it doesn’t really seem

1:14:28

1 hour, 14 minutes, 28 secondslike the class collaborationist model is really leading to any gains any longer at all. I mean, we know that this has been true for a long time, but this is like it is very explicit at this point.

1:14:39

1 hour, 14 minutes, 39 secondsUm and so maybe Hassan if you with that sort of like in the background um maybe speak about like moving forward with

1:14:46

1 hour, 14 minutes, 46 secondstrying to figure out what how we push um unions now to actually implement the

1:14:53

1 hour, 14 minutes, 53 secondshard cargo um resolutions in in in in reality.

1:15:00

1 hour, 15 minutesYeah. I know that’s uh that’s a good point and always we always make the case that there is a correlation between you know class struggle politics within the

1:15:08

1 hour, 15 minutes, 8 secondslabor movement and international solidarity that is rooted in anti-imperialism. The two cannot be separated. That’s why we’re seeing many

1:15:15

1 hour, 15 minutes, 15 secondsof labor for Palestine activists uh engaging within the labor movement at the class uh struggle level but but but

1:15:23

1 hour, 15 minutes, 23 secondsalso in relation to Palestine solidarity. Uh with respect to the hot cargo campaign specifically, we are

1:15:31

1 hour, 15 minutes, 31 secondsencouraged by by a number of uh of signs going forward. Of course, the main aim for us right now is to uh uh take the

1:15:41

1 hour, 15 minutes, 41 secondsresolutions uh for a declaration of hot cargo to the convention of the Canadian Labor Congress uh in May uh in Winnipeg

1:15:50

1 hour, 15 minutes, 50 secondsin a in a couple of months. Uh we’re encouraged by the fact that uh in the last few weeks of 2025

1:15:58

1 hour, 15 minutes, 58 secondsuh four labor federations including one of the biggest Ontario Labor Federation at its convention in December of 2025

1:16:05

1 hour, 16 minutes, 5 secondspassed a a hot cargo uh resolution uh declaring hot cargo on Israeli products, services, and relationships.

1:16:14

1 hour, 16 minutes, 14 secondsum uh calling for breaking ties with the histaded route uh and uh and uh of

1:16:22

1 hour, 16 minutes, 22 secondscourse making a commitment to the two-way arms embargo and asking the CLC to do likewise. So this is significant because this was passed by the OFL

1:16:30

1 hour, 16 minutes, 30 secondsFederation, the Nova Scotia Federation, Newf Finland Labrador Federation and a version of it at the New Brunswick Federation. So all of these of course

1:16:38

1 hour, 16 minutes, 38 secondsare going to come to the CLC convention in May. We are also in the in the midst.

1:16:43

1 hour, 16 minutes, 43 secondsWe have one more week left before locals and labor councils and uh uh and the

1:16:50

1 hour, 16 minutes, 50 secondsnational unions can submit u uh resolutions to the CLC. Uh and we are

1:16:58

1 hour, 16 minutes, 58 secondsencouraged by the fact that many are stepping forward. We don’t know how many we’re going to end up with, but the more the the better. So if there any in the audience, anybody who is connected to a

1:17:06

1 hour, 17 minutes, 6 secondslabor council or a local, please make sure that is affiliated of course to the CLC, make sure they put forward this

1:17:13

1 hour, 17 minutes, 13 secondsresolution. Um I could also uh let folks know that uh we in Labor for Palestine uh National Steering Committee had a

1:17:22

1 hour, 17 minutes, 22 secondsmeeting a couple of weeks back with the uh president of the Canadian Labor Congress specifically to discuss how to

1:17:29

1 hour, 17 minutes, 29 secondsuh get them to support hot cargo declaration. Hot cargo of course is something that the labor movement in Canada has declared in the past in the

1:17:38

1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 secondscontext of uh of the Argentinian uh military dictatorship in the context of uh of the uh war in

1:17:47

1 hour, 17 minutes, 47 secondsIraq in the context of the Indonesian occupation of East Timur. So there are a lot of examples where the labor movement

1:17:55

1 hour, 17 minutes, 55 secondsstepped up. Sometimes reluctantly, sometimes they came in kicking and screaming, but they took these positions and we want them to do likewise. And uh so it was a good productive meeting.

1:18:06

1 hour, 18 minutes, 6 secondsThere was not hostile. Um they were expecting us at the convention. They know we’re coming and uh uh and we’re

1:18:14

1 hour, 18 minutes, 14 secondsengaging them in as as much as I don’t like the word dialogue because it’s very liberal. Uh we’re engaging them in discussion. uh shall we say uh and make

1:18:23

1 hour, 18 minutes, 23 secondssure that uh that we can get their support when it comes to the convention.

1:18:28

1 hour, 18 minutes, 28 secondsBut let me repeat that as important as it is to pass a hot cargo declaration at the convention, putting it into practice

1:18:36

1 hour, 18 minutes, 36 secondswill be the second challenge. Uh but we are building our ranks. We have a network across the country through

1:18:44

1 hour, 18 minutes, 44 secondschapters in cities and caucuses across the country in a lot of the major unions and uh and uh we will be moving into a

1:18:52

1 hour, 18 minutes, 52 secondsday of action in May and the convention as well and uh more work ahead of us to make sure that we um act on these

1:19:02

1 hour, 19 minutes, 2 secondsresolutions and and contribute to making sure that the rogue upper tide settler colonial state of Israel is isolated.

1:19:11

1 hour, 19 minutes, 11 secondsated within Canada and the companies and the entities and the governments uh at all levels in the Canadian state that

1:19:20

1 hour, 19 minutes, 20 secondsare complicit in uh in the state of Israel are targets of ours and uh and

1:19:26

1 hour, 19 minutes, 26 secondsthey they they move themselves from any complicity. So there’s more work ahead of us than we’ve seen over the past two years. Definitely.

1:19:37

1 hour, 19 minutes, 37 secondsExcellent. Thanks, Hassan. Um I just wanted to preamble this. I’m going to toss it over to Amina for the last question, but um we sort of have a an

1:19:45

1 hour, 19 minutes, 45 secondsend time of 8:30, so we’re very close to it. So perhaps, uh like Amina will ask her last question and then uh maybe we can get through it slightly quickly and then we’ll just wrap. Thanks.

1:19:55

1 hour, 19 minutes, 55 secondsYeah, I think the final question that I think is very important and you know when we’re out there organizing in the

1:20:04

1 hour, 20 minutes, 4 secondsfield and talking to different types of people, I know I’m talking to my own Muslim community and talking to them about their union and they’re members of

1:20:12

1 hour, 20 minutes, 12 secondsdifferent unions, you know, and I just wanted to ask both of you before we end um like why do you think it’s still

1:20:19

1 hour, 20 minutes, 19 secondsimportant for workers to engage with the union for Palestinian solidarity for different types of international

1:20:27

1 hour, 20 minutes, 27 secondsstruggles like the Palestinian Liberation Movement. Why should we keep pushing within these organizations and um yep, I’ll give it to Hassan and Jeff to end it.

1:20:38

1 hour, 20 minutes, 38 secondsTwo points. Number one, um um I can tell you that over the past two years, uh a

1:20:45

1 hour, 20 minutes, 45 secondslot of union members that we met at demonstrations and actions in support of Palestine were not active in their

1:20:52

1 hour, 20 minutes, 52 secondsunions prior to engaging with labor for Palestine and engaging with the Palestine Solidarity Movement broadly.

1:20:59

1 hour, 20 minutes, 59 secondsAnd they understood that uh labor is taking a position as opposed to a lot of other organizations in the country.

1:21:07

1 hour, 21 minutes, 7 secondsunions are in many respects as timid as they may be at times uh they’re stepping up and so that appealed to them uh and

1:21:16

1 hour, 21 minutes, 16 secondsuh and they are now many of them are engaging in uh the labor movement and becoming more uh active in their locals

1:21:23

1 hour, 21 minutes, 23 secondsand labor councils. The second point I want to make is that uh uh the organized labor movement is the biggest mass

1:21:32

1 hour, 21 minutes, 32 secondsdemocratic organization we have in Canada in the country in the United States. uh notwithstanding some of the criticisms that we spoke about earlier

1:21:40

1 hour, 21 minutes, 40 secondswith respect to the still the business unionist model that they are working within, they are still the only mass organizations that actually are

1:21:48

1 hour, 21 minutes, 48 secondspracticing some democratic uh governance and structures internally. And so it is very important from that aspect for us

1:21:56

1 hour, 21 minutes, 56 secondsto continue to engage with the labor movement as opposed to doing it outside the labor movement. And labor has a

1:22:03

1 hour, 22 minutes, 3 secondsgreat deal of power. We know that as as leftists, as Marxists, as socialists, we understand that uh we’ve seen it in

1:22:11

1 hour, 22 minutes, 11 secondshistorically. And uh and that is a a a a

1:22:17

1 hour, 22 minutes, 17 secondsarena that we need to uh rebuild as opposed to abandon. And uh there is a

1:22:24

1 hour, 22 minutes, 24 secondsgreat deal of power that can be exercised uh for change internally uh but also in terms of international

1:22:32

1 hour, 22 minutes, 32 secondssolidarity with oppressed and occupied people and colonized people.

1:22:40

1 hour, 22 minutes, 40 secondsI can’t really add much to that. I completely agree with everything Hassan said. you know, for all their uh shortcomings or faults, unions are

1:22:49

1 hour, 22 minutes, 49 secondsthe most democratic organizations that that we really have in a capitalist society. And they are um

1:22:58

1 hour, 22 minutes, 58 secondsvery powerful being organized, you know, in the workplace and bringing together workers of all different um races and

1:23:05

1 hour, 23 minutes, 5 secondsnationalities and cultures and genders and uh political persuasions and bringing everyone together in the

1:23:13

1 hour, 23 minutes, 13 secondsworkplace and organized. Uh and we know historically that unions um when they take on class struggle, when they take

1:23:21

1 hour, 23 minutes, 21 secondson anti-racism, anti-imperialism, anti-colonialism, when they fight for socialism, they are incredibly powerful and effective. And

1:23:31

1 hour, 23 minutes, 31 secondsum and historically, we also know that unions are malleable. They can change. They can be uh they can be strengthened.

1:23:38

1 hour, 23 minutes, 38 secondsThey can be improved. Um and that’s where yeah engagement and organizing and

1:23:44

1 hour, 23 minutes, 44 secondsuh are really vital. So um Hassan said it much better than me but uh I I I’m better at writing these things. So if

1:23:53

1 hour, 23 minutes, 53 secondsyou read the conclusion of my book I think it’s uh it’s it it I make the case there. But thank you.

1:24:02

1 hour, 24 minutes, 2 secondsThank you so much uh Hassan and Jeeoff. I think that’s a perfect place to end.

1:24:06

1 hour, 24 minutes, 6 secondsUm, I’m sorry we didn’t get to everybody’s questions um, in the chat. I sort of wrote a couple things. Um, but there lots of obviously tons to talk

1:24:15

1 hour, 24 minutes, 15 secondsabout here. Um, so I just wanted to uh, finish off by saying that um, this has been a presentation by the people’s

1:24:23

1 hour, 24 minutes, 23 secondsvoice forum. Um, thank you so much for attending. We’ll definitely have more events coming up this year, so please

1:24:31

1 hour, 24 minutes, 31 secondslook out for those. Um, you’ve been listening to Jeff Shery um, and have talk about his book, No Neutrals There,

1:24:38

1 hour, 24 minutes, 38 secondsUS Labor, Zionism, and the Struggle for Palestine. Um, you can get that book through Hey Market, uh, in the US and

1:24:46

1 hour, 24 minutes, 46 secondsalso through New Labor Press um, in Canada. Um, and you’ve also been listening to Hassan Husini um, from

1:24:54

1 hour, 24 minutes, 54 secondsLabor for Palestine. Um he’s actively working as you you listen to here um resolutions uh passing hot cargo

1:25:03

1 hour, 25 minutes, 3 secondsresolutions being passed through the CLC that’s going to be upcoming this year.

1:25:08

1 hour, 25 minutes, 8 secondsUm if you are a union member and you can get delegate status or even if you cannot um please reach out to Labor for

1:25:15

1 hour, 25 minutes, 15 secondsPalestine to um pass along the resolution to your executive and to your other labor members so that they can get

1:25:23

1 hour, 25 minutes, 23 secondson board with with this resolution which is desperately needed um in the labor movement. Um, I’d also like to thank uh

1:25:31

1 hour, 25 minutes, 31 secondsour hosts again, People’s Voice Newspaper, the Canadian Freelance Union, uh, New Labor Press, and Labor for

1:25:38

1 hour, 25 minutes, 38 secondsPalestine. Um, and then finally, thank you to Hassan and Jeff for joining us.

1:25:42

1 hour, 25 minutes, 42 secondsUm, and Jeff for the second time. It’s very great to, uh, to see you both here. Thank you. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

1:25:51

1 hour, 25 minutes, 51 secondsYeah, thank you so much.